Vinyl records have reclaimed their place in music culture, but what’s driving the resurgence, and what does it mean for artists, collectors, and the industry? Journalist and Making Vinyl co-founder Larry Jaffee joins Music Evolves to explore the past, present, and future of vinyl, from its sound and experience to the challenges and innovations shaping what comes next.
Guest: Larry Jaffee, Author, Journalist, Professor, and Co-Founder of Making Vinyl | On LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/larry-jaffee-1379bb2/
Host: Sean Martin, Co-Founder at ITSPmagazine [@ITSPmagazine] and Host of Redefining CyberSecurity Podcast & Music Evolves Podcast | On ITSPmagazine: https://www.itspmagazine.com/sean-martin
Vinyl records have experienced one of the most unexpected resurgences in music history. Once considered obsolete, the format has reestablished its presence in the music sales market, attracting collectors, audiophiles, and younger generations discovering the medium for the first time. On this episode of Music Evolves, host Sean Martin is joined by Larry Jaffee, journalist, author, and co-founder of Making Vinyl, to explore the past, present, and future of vinyl records.
The History and Evolution of Vinyl
Larry Jaffee’s passion for music began early, shaped by childhood experiences with radio, tape recorders, and eventually, his first turntable. His journey mirrors that of recorded music itself—from early reel-to-reel tapes and cassettes to the dominance of LPs. Jaffee explains how vinyl records initially took hold in the 1940s, replacing fragile shellac 78s, and how the industry saw its first format war between Thomas Edison’s cylinders and Emil Berliner’s flat disc records.
By the 1980s, however, vinyl was rapidly losing ground to compact discs, and later, digital streaming. The shift was largely driven by convenience, corporate pressure, and the record industry’s aggressive push for higher-priced CDs. As labels stopped accepting returns on LPs, retailers began phasing them out. Yet, as Jaffee points out, the format never truly disappeared. Audiophile labels, collectors, and independent artists kept vinyl alive, setting the stage for its resurgence decades later.
The Vinyl Revival
Vinyl’s comeback has been driven by multiple factors, including nostalgia, superior sound quality, and a renewed appreciation for physical media. Jaffee highlights Record Store Day, the annual event launched in 2008 that played a key role in reigniting public interest in records. Starting with just a dozen exclusive releases and a high-profile in-store appearance by Metallica, Record Store Day quickly gained traction, attracting major labels and leading to hundreds of special vinyl releases each year.
Independent artists and labels have also embraced vinyl as a way to connect with fans and generate revenue. Unlike streaming, where payouts are minimal, selling a physical album—especially directly to fans—can be a major source of income for musicians. Jaffee notes that younger generations are playing a key role in sustaining the trend, with millennial and Gen Z listeners making up a growing portion of vinyl buyers.
Sound Quality and the Vinyl Experience
One of the biggest debates in music is whether vinyl actually sounds better than digital formats. While some argue that CDs and high-resolution digital files offer cleaner sound, vinyl enthusiasts appreciate the warmth, depth, and dynamic range that analog recordings provide. The experience of playing a record—removing it from the sleeve, placing it on the turntable, and carefully dropping the needle—also adds a tactile, immersive element that digital music lacks.
Jaffee discusses how vinyl manufacturing has improved in recent years, with pressing plants refining quality control and experimenting with new formulations, including colored and marbled vinyl. However, the resurgence has also exposed industry bottlenecks, with pressing plants struggling to keep up with demand.
The Future of Vinyl: Sustainability and Innovation
As vinyl production increases, concerns about its environmental impact have also grown. Traditional records are made from polyvinyl chloride (PVC), a material that Greenpeace considers among the most harmful plastics. Jaffee is now involved in efforts to create plant-based, sustainable alternatives, and his team recently produced their first eco-friendly record using a new biodegradable material.
With new pressing plants opening, younger audiences embracing the format, and innovations in sustainability, vinyl’s future looks promising. While digital music remains dominant, the continued demand for physical media proves that records are more than just a nostalgic novelty—they offer an experience that streaming cannot replicate.
Listen to the Full Episode
Larry Jaffee’s deep knowledge of music history, industry shifts, and the cultural significance of vinyl makes this an essential episode for music fans. Tune in to Music Evolves to hear more about the making of records, the role of packaging and design, and what’s next for the format that refuses to fade.
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Music Evolves: Sonic Frontiers Newsletter | Grooves That Connect: A Reunion in Music: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/grooves-connect-reunion-music-sean-martin-ksfke/
Mixtape Museum: https://mixtapemuseum.org/
Article | As Trevor Noah exits Daily Show: his music tastes and life as a teenaged CD bootlegger in South Africa: https://www.goldminemag.com/articles/as-trevor-noah-exits-daily-show-his-music-tastes-and-life-as-a-teenaged-cd-bootlegger-in-south-africa
Article | How well is MoFi managing its digital mastering LP controversy? https://www.goldminemag.com/collector-resources/how-well-is-mofi-managing-its-digital-mastering-lp-controversy
[00:00:00]
Sean Martin: And hello everybody you're very welcome to a new episode of music evolves here I am your host sean martin where I get to talk [00:01:00] about A passion of mine, music, and another passion of mine, technology, and the, the combination of the two and, and how those two to come, come together with creativity to, uh, to help music evolve and touch us all in, in ways that maybe we expect, maybe ways we don't expect, and that's the beauty of it, uh, music can come in many forms, one of which is through, uh, medium, um, LP, long play, uh, records.
And we're going to talk about vinyl, kind of the history of vinyl and, uh, the future of vinyl as well. And I have a very good friend on with me, Larry Jaffe. Good to see you, Larry. It's been a while for, for those who saw the post, we've known each other for quite a bit, met in person for the first time just the other day.
It was a really, really good to have that moment with you.
Larry Jaffee: Yes, I'm here. It's nice to have you on this coast.
Sean Martin: [00:02:00] I know the east coast, the right coast, as some might say. I love it here. I didn't wear my Yankees hat, but I am in New York and I love the city. And the energy and all the, all the options for music at literally in the last three nights, I've been to three different shows, all of them.
And, uh, I might go again tonight, the Philharmonic is playing. So, uh, lots of opportunity to experience and explore different genres of music and meet different people and, and feel different things every day. Um, So Larry, you and I met, I don't know how many years ago, we won't date ourselves. How many years ago we met.
But we crossed paths in, uh, in the cybersecurity world. You're a journalist, I'm a journalist. We talk about threats and risk to business and, and, uh, it's an exciting space, but not like music. And, uh, like, like me, I believe you have a passion for music and you have [00:03:00] a, uh, and even. for, for vinyl and making, making vinyl and, uh, listening to vinyl.
You even, you even brought a portable, uh, record player the other day where we met and spun a few records, which was, uh, it was pretty cool. That was a moment in itself. So maybe for folks who don't know you at, uh, maybe a little background on who Larry is and what you've been up to describe your, your love of music and, and your.
Why you have an interest in vinyl and then we'll get into why vinyl.
Larry Jaffee: Okay. Well, first of all, I love that the podcast is called Music Evolves because you couldn't have a better name to describe what happened, the vinyl comeback. Um, and unlike cybersecurity, the music industry often goes through cycles, but they're very slow.
Catching up, you know, as an industry, I [00:04:00] mean, some things happen, but I'll give you an example, CDs launched in 1983, but it wasn't towards the end of the decade where it really connected within a consumer audience. And the industry sort of made it happen. But to your question, who am I? So I guess it was, uh, my love of music began as a child when my grandmother gave me a transistor radio, uh, for my fifth birthday and the Beatles, Beatlemania was happening.
And my father actually, I remember us watching the Ed Sullivan show. And my father said. The Beatles are a communist plot, and I really didn't know what a Beatle was, and I don't know, I didn't know what a communist was, but whatever it was, I wanted to know more because it gave him that reaction, [00:05:00] you know, um, and I also, one of my earliest childhood memories actually is taking a bath Probably in 1964, too, when, uh, the, uh, song Downtown, uh, was, was on, um, and, you know, I, I was singing along, again, I didn't know what Downtown was, but it's just, I liked it.
It's Petula Clark, the English singer, actually. Um, so I guess my mother had the radio on, and my mother was a big, um, music fan, you know, Bobby Soxer with Frank Sinatra and all that stuff, um. So. Fast forward to the time I was about 11 and I started a new school and this kid had a tape recorder, a reel to reel, but a small reel to reel.
And he played it for me. And I was just amazed that you could record your voices. And then, and I was like, I was putting two and two together. How can I do [00:06:00] this with music? Um, now I wasn't a musician myself at that age. Um, I wouldn't call myself a musician now either, but, but I've attempted a couple of times, but, um, I remember I had birthday money a few, about two years later, and I was like, where can I get that reel to reel tape recorder?
And the department store didn't have that, but they did have. a cassette recorder. So it was like my first and it was like when I was FBI rectangular ones. And I remember buying my first pre recorded cassette was Chuck Berry's London Sessions, which had the, uh, My Ding a ling song, which I just, even at that age, I was able to pick up on the double entendres.
But like the next year, 1972, I was already realizing I need to graduate to a record player of some sort. And I [00:07:00] bought, um, a one on one turntable. It wasn't like a real stereo component. And I guess it came with speakers, come to think of it. And I was able to attach, like, a cassette deck to it. So I put together almost the almost a stereo system.
It must have a preamp built into it or something like that. Um, so at that point, I remember my first record was introducing the Beatles. Um, for like 99 cents, it was a cutout or something. I never figured out if it was a counterfeit or not, because that's like for that record in particular, there are plenty.
I still have it, by the way, that that particular, you know, exact copy of it. Um, but like within the next week, The Rolling Stones, Hot Rocks, Greatest Hits double album came out. So I bought that, and then like a week, I don't know, maybe the next month, [00:08:00] I caught the Bob Dylan bug, and um, I got Highway 61 revisited.
And, and then by like for the next four months, I think all I ever listened to was Bob Dylan, you know, cause I, I got the grace hits, you know, I've got blonde and blonde, any money that I made, you know, on my, I think by this point, I don't think I was working in the supermarket yet. My allowance money or whatever, my birthday money I would save up.
Um, you know, we go into records. I do remember I was working at a supermarket wishing, I tried to get a job at a record store. I mean, I asked around, but, you know, no one had that. I mean, the place where I bought actually the second Rolling Stones Hot Rocks album, I remember asking that guy in Smithtown, long Island.
Yeah. I'm, uh, it wasn't the first time I bought [00:09:00] records at his store either, you know, for a job, and he, he didn't have one for me. I was very disappointed. ,
Sean Martin: imagine working in the tower records or, uh, yeah. Records. Uh, right. Would've been so much fun.
Larry Jaffee: So, I mean, I had amassed, um, I, I realized I wanted to be a writer.
And I reviewed, I remember I reviewed the Rod Stewart concert from my high school newspaper. Um, it was one of the last Rod Stewart and the Faces concerts, actually, the Faces as a group. Um, I tried to talk my way in with a press, like a phony press invitation or something like that. Didn't work. Um, but I realized, I wanted in in the music business, but I didn't know what area yet, you know.
And, but what happened was while I was still in high school, um, I volunteered to interview bands, um, to be at the [00:10:00] high school dance, no, perform at the high school dance. And I, you know, it was great. I, I wasn't a very social kid either at this point, you know, I never like joined clubs or anything like at that point, but when I saw there was an opportunity to get into the music business through the school, I just sort of grabbed it.
And then I auditioned, I think three different bands. And the one I thought was the best was the one that got the gig and I became the manager. Um, and, and we were all underage, 16 or 17. And I was able to get them jobs at bars, you know, with liquor licenses. And getting back to it, I mean, I had my own band at that point.
I was the lead singer. And I remember playing for guitar player of the other band and that I was managing. And he, he was impressed. Like he thought [00:11:00] I did like a passable, you know, uh, vocal, you know, akin to Mick Jagger, you know? And, and he also, he went, it's a weird thing was I went to a different high school as those guys, but the guitar player, my band went to their high school.
So we were like sort of like the baby band or they never asked us to open up for them, which is probably just, well, the living room, you know, we weren't a garage band because we used to rehearse in my friend's living room, the bass player's living room.
Sean Martin: So I want, I want to get to the, to the bottom because I remember having a boom box carrying on my shoulder and, and I didn't have a lot of money growing up.
So most of my money went to blank cassettes and I would record stuff off the radio and listen back to it. Um, and eventually I got into cassettes and I have a ton of CDs and I have, I have some collector albums, [00:12:00] LPs. Um, not, I know they're a huge collection. I believe you have a decent collection of, of records as well.
Um, but the, I guess the, For me, I was there in a time where you could create your own and record your own music on a cassette, right? And kind of capture your own moment. It's hard to do that on an LP. So LPs are pretty much more, they're more about being produced and pressed and released and somebody can take the music.
So how did your Cause you talked a little bit about the cassettes there and obviously you can create CDs for yourself too with music. But talk to me about the LP and then the desire to, uh, get involved with that.
Larry Jaffee: Yeah, so, well just on the cassette, it's uncanny that you bring this up because two hours ago I was giving a [00:13:00] lecture about mixtapes and a friend of mine is the founder of something called the Mixtape Museum.
And she and I actually gave the history to, you know, of the format and how it connected to DJ's spinning vinyl, you know, the evolution of it, you know. Um, so from what's really interesting is in the forties, especially You could go into like a retail establishment and record a record. And in fact, at third man records in.
Nashville. Um, they have one of these old booths where Neil Young himself actually recorded an album about 10 years ago. Um, and anyone could use this booth and I didn't do it myself actually, but I've been to the store several times and you know, sometimes people come in with [00:14:00] guitars and they play this song and this like, So it was like a lost art, and I'm not really sure why it disappeared, but it was possible.
On the other hand, especially in the 40s and 50s, there were plenty of places to get recorded. Actually, at Sun Studios in Memphis, Elvis Presley made his first record for his mom. And Jack White actually ended up buying that record, I think, I don't know, $750,000 or something like that. I should know the exact amount.
Right. . So
Sean Martin: I'm sure he knows .
Larry Jaffee: Right, right. So, um, so I, I, it's interesting.
Sean Martin: I'm gonna have to ask my dad because I know I have a 45. My dad played on a, on a 45. It's a single obviously. And I can't imagine there are many of them. It's a, it's a rock band. He played horns on it, funny [00:15:00] enough. And I don't, I don't think they went to a big formal production company, so they must've done use something like that in LA perhaps.
I don't know. I'll have to ask him. Interesting.
Larry Jaffee: Yeah, actually. Um. Like I said, there were plenty of recording studios, but the interesting thing about Elvis Presley in particular, my grandfather on my mother's side, um, was a gadget, he was a mailman, he, he was a letter carrier, but he had these interesting hobbies, like photography, and he was like the first on his block to have a color television, um, or, you know, and when, He also loved Elvis Presley and I, I understood that he had a record collection, although I only met him a couple of times actually, because my mother, my, my grandmother and my grandfather were divorced by that point in the sixties.
So I've [00:16:00] been, I had been to his house maybe twice in my entire lifetime and then he died in 1969. So. Um, but I remember once I was a teenager collecting records that by the point and I asked my mother what happened to the Elvis records and she said she didn't know, you know, but I do remember when he died that I, it was like relatives like were like vultures like.
No, not if anybody in the family was a rightful owner to that, that, that collection would have been me, but, um, so, but I mean, through college, once I graduated college, I was always writing about music, you know, for example, I remember my first, one of my first professional, um, Assignments was, um, covering a Jerry Garcia, um, concert and, um, I hated it.
I mean, at that point
Sean Martin: Hated the gig or hated the [00:17:00] concert?
Larry Jaffee: I hated the concert, but it was very monotonous that almost every single song sounded alike. I did like the Grateful Dead American Beauty album, so it wasn't like me. But the Deadheads hated my review and they let them the magazine. No, but that didn't deter me at all.
Um, and also around the same time I had published an article on a fanzine about Sid Vicious's murder trial, which I actually It was a pre trial hearing at the court. It was my first glimpse of what a media circus can turn into. Um, and I was in the elevator alone with Sid Vicious and his lawyer. And one of the things I asked him, I know I couldn't ask him about the case.
Did you do it? But I did ask him, did you hear the new Clash album? Give Him Enough Rope just came out. like the week before or something. And his lawyer said, don't, don't answer that. And I was like, why? And then the door opened and you know, that was my, my, my, [00:18:00] but it was the only three of us who was in the elevator and Sib was going through withdrawal symptoms.
I mean, it looked horrible. Um, so, um, on the technology side, I mean, I remember, you know, especially You know, when I was managing the band and stuff like that, I would talk to the sound engineer and things like that, but I really, I mean, at one point I wondered, should I go to school for that type of knowledge or do I want to do it?
And I decided I was just going to stick with like managing and writing about it. You know, like from that perspective, not so much be a participant in the making of music or anything like that. I sort of regret it because I think I could be a very good producer.
Sean Martin: I can imagine you could be, I can imagine you could be.
Um, one of the things I wanted to [00:19:00] cover, I mean, I have, it's kind of like the, the, the, the inception of the record, um, we, most people probably picture a disc. Right? With a hole in the middle. But some of the other options early on were, were cylinder shaped.
Larry Jaffee: Yeah, actually that was the, the first format war, Edison had the cylinder, and Emil Berliner, um, a German expat, moved to the United States in 1888, actually patented, um, the first circular, uh, record.
Um, but this is interesting, in my archives, I found this magazine, um, from 1931 called the Gramophone. Um, and at this time, the records were made out of shellac. Um, Robert Crum, the cartoonist, um, is a 78 collector. And I did a couple [00:20:00] interviews with him over the years. And I remember telling him that he was in a, a, um, book about vinyl collectors.
And the first thing Crum said to me was, I'm not a vinyl collector. I collect 78s, not the same thing.
Sean Martin: Describe, describe the difference for, for us. Okay, so 78s. What is shellac, what is vinyl, and then we can talk. Yeah,
Larry Jaffee: I mean the initial 78s were just one sided, and they, um, they were made out of shellac.
They were very heavy. They were very breakable. Um, and I've actually bought, I look at record fares. Of the last 20 years, a couple times I bought, um, records that I felt were protected, and then when I got them home, broken. It's happened like at least twice. Um, so, um, they only were able to hold like [00:21:00] three minutes on a side, you know.
Um, so
Sean Martin: No, why is that? The format of the Of the, the information pressed into the, into the tracks or the players or what was the limitation there?
Larry Jaffee: Um, yeah, it was, um, in terms of the technology, it evolved and they've figured out a way to capture the sound waves on a different type of material and actually extend it.
To 15 or 20 minutes per side and you get both sides, they figured out a manufacturing process that could not only do it, but also automate it. Um, and it would, it would have happened sooner, but the 2 things that happened more, uh, the depression. So this, I mean, this magazine is 1931 and there are ads for like records and, [00:22:00] you know, as you could see, there's, you know, a graphic thing with, um, you know, these are definitely circular records, right?
Um, here's a, an ad, the cover broke off, but here's a ad for, um, Columbia records. And this is a pretty healthy magazine. I mean, you know, print magazines don't have as many pages as this. I mean, this is like at least 52 pages or so this issue. Um, so the format war, by the way, with the cylinders, with Edison, that sort of Ended by the 20s.
I mean, Edison finally realized, you know, he kept, he kept the cylinders going for a while, but it was a losing proposition. And one of the things he did was vertically integrate like into hardware, you know, like, like, which was a smart thing. And the labels actually did that too, as well as the, you know, there was a tie into [00:23:00] broadcasting, radio, you know, so RCA was in it, but they also had a label, you know.
Um, so one, the other thing, major thing politically happened was World War II. Um, and the LP would have been introduced a lot sooner and RCA was actually developing their own version of it. Columbia beat them to the market. Um, but so in 1948, the first LP Um, was introduced in, you know, a few years ago at my conference, making vinyl, um, it was the 75th anniversary of, um, the LP.
Um, and we had a presentation about that, that the history of, you know, how it all came about. Um, And the other thing that was happening in the fifties was that the, um, RCA, although they lost the LP battle, [00:24:00] they beat Columbia in terms of a, or it was more of a concept, um, The, uh, single, 7 inch single, um. Now, get back to the Shellac 78s.
They were a different size. They were like, you know, 10 inches. Um, and often what they would do is combine a bunch of songs together. And they would put them in what they called an album. And I was friends, actually, with the man who was credited as the father of modern, um, album packaging, Alex Steinweis.
Um, and I convinced him to, um, speak at our conference. I actually named the packaging awards after him. Um, this happened in probably about 19. I'm trying to think the dates, actually. No, maybe it was a better year later. 2000 2001. When we did our first [00:25:00] packaging awards.
Sean Martin: When you talk packaging, you're talking about the sleeve.
Larry Jaffee: Yeah. At that point. I haven't really thought about this. It said, no, it was actually 2003. And I was, I w I was working in LA. I would go to LA at least twice a year for a conference that we ran. And, um, it was a DVD production primarily, you know, at that point, DVD was all the rage. Um, And then in 2000, we started that conference in 1998 when I first joined the magazine as editor and, um, we partnered with a trade association to do it.
By the next year, um, I ended up getting the responsibility for the entire conference and I thought, I'm in Hollywood, I want to expand this and I invited Peter Bogdanovich, in fact, to [00:26:00] be a keynote, managed to get almost 20, 000 for his speaking fee and his first class travel. But, um, by 2003, we expanded into also having a separate packaging conference.
and packaging awards. And that's when I was able to get Alex Steinweiss to meet. Actually, the Grammy winner for the previous three years was a guy named Kevin Regan, also from LA, um, who was Madonna's, uh, packaging, uh, director, um, art director. Um, so Kevin, it was, it was really interesting to watch Kevin and Alex.
Compare notes about, you know, how their assistants would steal their tools and their ideas and like all this stuff, you know, um, And, you know, they missed a couple of generations, you know, and in between, actually, the emcee of our packaging awards is a friend of mine, uh, [00:27:00] named Craig Braun, who was responsible for, for example, the Velvet Underground and Nico, uh, package with the banana, the peel, peelable, um, banana, 19, early 1967, and then the Rolling Stones Sticky Fingers, And Alice Cooper's Schools Out, these are all famous because they really broke, you know, not rules, but they, they, um, you know, set the bar in terms of, uh, ingenuity in terms of packaging for a record.
He also did Cheech and Chong, Chong's, um, with the rolling papers, that was his. He came up with a marketing campaign to have a big joint on the side of one of the LA buses. So, so anyway, I mean, I. And that was probably the most fun job I ever had because I got to, you know, meet really creative [00:28:00] people in the music business.
Um, and also, you know, I was able to invite, um, we, well, for example, in that magazine, I interviewed Lou Reed, who's always been my, one of my heroes. And put him on the cover of the magazine. And he talked, you know, for a half hour just about his gripes with the business, you know. When did the picture disc come around?
Um. That's a really good question. I don't know the exact date, but there were examples of it before the comeback. I mean, that's not like a brand new thing. I mean, so, I mean, for example, in the seventies and eighties, there were a picture of this, I have some of them in my collection,
Sean Martin: I think I have a, I have a quiet riot and a Duran Duran, and they seem to be very popular in this.
Yeah. The eighties.
Larry Jaffee: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, one of the things about the comeback is they've gotten more creative with [00:29:00] formulations. That, um, in fact, um, I recently saw a podcast that talked about how, um, the way the record spins, it's almost like it's a, it's a visual video. I mean, it's not, you know, They've gotten very creative.
And, um, that's not to say, I remember in the early seventies, one of my favorite artists was a British musician named Dave Mason. He had an album called Lone Together, and it was like a big thing that he had like a marble looking record. Uh, so, um, but it's, it's far more creative in terms of, in fact, at my conference making vinyl, we had also, we brought back.
The packaging awards. Um, so when we did the package, the Alex Awards originally from, um, uh, nearly, um, I guess 2003 [00:30:00] was the first one that we did. Um, we had a vinyl category. You know, which at that point was the comeback was sort of in its infancy. I mean, there was still some pressing plans. Um, for example, Erica records is in Southern California.
I remember them participating.
Sean Martin: Um, talk to me about the, kind of the slowdown and you've mentioned the comeback a couple of times, driver behind that, I mean, nostalgia is something that I continue to. See and experience and feel in the music world, but is it driven by other other? Yeah
Larry Jaffee: So in the late 70s Home entertainment changed that video games first came on the market And then also, um, there was a VHS beta max war, um, that, you know, you could take.
Television, you know, um, [00:31:00] and there were all kinds of lit, there was all kinds of litigation going on MP, uh, the MPAA, um, you know, said it was, uh, theft and intellectual property theft and things like that, but they end up winning by five to four. I mean, it was very slim. Okay. I mean, you know, everything could have really changed much differently.
Um, so young people were not really. Buying records as much, especially by 1981, November, 1981 MTV came, you know, and cable TV was still in its sort of infancy at that stage, but the people who had it to have like a 24, seven music video channel was, was amazing. Um, and you know, people instead of like, you know, Listening via the stereos and buying records.[00:32:00]
Or tapes, cassettes. I mean, and let's not forget 8 tracks were really popular in the 70s. Um. So the, the, the labels realized they had to reinvent themselves and what they did was they created the CD, which, you know, was another format or between Sony and Phillips. Um, they made some, they made peace and what is great about this CD is it, it got.
People used to rebuying their collections on a completely different format, although the music was the same, but they re bought it, but at twice the price, which is, it's like history repeating itself as far as the vinyl comeback, but the way that the industry managed to make that transition, like, as you say, evolves.
Was that they told the retailers they won't accept returns any more on LPs [00:33:00] so often the labels would Manufacture more than they really needed Industry was really corrupt at the time. They would keep two sets of books And there was a adage that you know records were shipped platinum No, I'm sorry. Ship gold, but return platinum.
Gold is 500, 000 copies. What? So 1 million. And the reason they did that was because, and this could be even banned like the who, right? Um, that they, the cutouts, they didn't have to pay the artists as much money. So it corrupt. I mean, it was really. Not a very, um, nice, um, uh, time in the, in the industry. And I mean, not that, I mean, there was also counterfeiting.
There was bootlegging, um, And I actually interviewed [00:34:00] one of the people who ended up, you know, ratting out the mob connected gangsters who were in on this. Um, you know, I talked to FBI people. I mean, I, you know, I did some investigative reporting. Billboard actually published one of my articles about that stuff.
Um, so, um, I think the, the industry wrote the. CD Cash Cow too far by keeping prices way high, uh, because in fact, my first article was about CD prices. This was in 1998, uh, early 1998, you know, what really happens with that 19, 1798, you know, list price when I learned that. The most, it costs like 1. 50 to manufacture the CD.
Where was the money going? And much like [00:35:00] today's streaming world with, you know, most of Spotify and, and all the other, uh, you know, streaming services accounting for most of what appears to be. The music valuations, it's like smoke and mirrors really, because that does not really trickle down to the music creators and the artists.
No, it's the deals that they make with the major labels, and then depending on what kind of contracts they have with their artists, do they get paid.
Sean Martin: Does, does that change any with LPs? Cause I know, I know that a lot of artists have made an effort to release records, not just
Larry Jaffee: Yeah, I mean, you know, I mean, the artists have more power than they, they usually A lot of artists, and I know this from the managing side, a lot of them don't want to deal with the business stuff at all.
But the more savvy ones realize that they don't have to say yes [00:36:00] to everything during the negotiation period. Um, and what they can do is When they go on the road, say, well, we want to put our own records. I mean, I'll give you an example. I had interviewed about, not interviewed, but I met him at a gig, Mark Lannigan, who passed away a few years ago.
Great independent artist, um, was in, um. A band, um, what are they called, uh, Screaming Trees out of Seattle, they were part of the grunge scene, uh, that came out of it, they were assigned to, I think, um, Sony at that point, the, the Screaming Trees, but Mark Lanigan, once he, you know, left that band, he did almost everything independently, I mean, very rarely would he have put out anything on a major label, and I think there was a reason for that, because he wanted the freedom to do what he wanted, and the independent labels who were really behind The vinyl comeback in a much bigger way than the majors, with the exception of Warner, which was [00:37:00] never sort of gave up on vinyl like they would do, like they would put out like a Neil Young greatest hits, which they didn't really release on CD.
They thought it might be a special thing for vinyl collectors. The other thing about the. The vinyl comeback is that it never really went away because they were audiophile labels like Classic Records in Southern California, for example, that were putting out really great packages and great, um, sounding.
LPs. Uh, there's a, um, a company in Southern California called RTI Pressing Plant that did really fantastic work. They're still in business. There was another one called Rainbow Records, which was the oldest for a long time. And, um, unfortunately they decided not to continue just as the pandemic hit, but also the cost of doing business in California just became too much.
And in fact, Um, the [00:38:00] movie straight out of Compton, uh, used Rainbow Records office. Um, and, and you can see the plant actually in the film and, um, you know, the owner, Steve Sheldon's a friend of mine and he, you know, he told me how, you know, they came in and used his, um, facility for some scenes and things like that.
Um, so getting back to the, why the comeback happened. It was around the same time that Tower Records went chapter, initially chapter 11 and chapter 7. So in 2007, there were two or three factions of independent stores that, um, talked to each other a lot. And they realized that anytime when somebody would bring in a collection of used records that they wanted to get rid of because they were, you know, buying CDs, [00:39:00] those records would be bought almost immediately.
And it happened on a repeated basis. At the same time, some of them also had comic books. They also sold comic books. And the comic book publishers had something called free comic book day. So two different retails, one in Atlanta, one in, uh, Maine, um, basically went to, um, one of the heads of the, uh, this, uh, consortium of retailers and said, you know, maybe we should do like a holiday for.
You know, what we sell, you know, um, and out of that idea, they met in Baltimore in the fall of 19. I'm sorry, 2007. And the funny thing is they left. this topic for the very [00:40:00] last thing and people were leaving the convention and like the conference and There were only like a dozen people left and it was sort of like Woodstock, you know, people claim they were there but Example
Newbery
comics is one of this like small chains that you know, they do a really good job in curating What records they put?
And they also license their own records and they do special colors and additions and things like that. So anyway, everyone thought this one guy was, um, the representative. And so he reached him on the phone and he said, it wasn't me. It was my colleague. You know, and so the two, I interviewed the two of them together, actually, for the book.
The interesting, you mentioned me writing about cybersecurity. So, um, In the fall, it was September 30th, [00:41:00] I learned that SC Magazine was being sold and they didn't need my services anymore, you know, and I was writing pretty regularly. you know, for them at the time and it paid really well, by the way, uh, compared to any other journalism.
So, um, and like the next week I get a call from the co founder of record store day and
Sean Martin: which is the holiday right? Record store.
Larry Jaffee: Yeah. He says, you know, our 15th anniversary is coming up. How would you like to So I said to Michael, I was born to write that book. Um, now here's the reality. I mean, I actually, my magazine that I mentioned media, it was called Media Line.
um, was killed in 2006, but I left the company about four months earlier because they couldn't afford me anymore. Um, and they realized the person who under me made half the amount of money, [00:42:00] you know, and, but then they were also selling the company, and the, the title did not survive, actually. So, um, uh, you know, I, I, I was sort of grew disenchanted with physical media Totally.
You know, and I was in a relationship with women who, you know, was very. into Feng Shui and, you know, uh, you know, minimal stuff. And so I remember trying to digitize all my CDs and things like that. And I was at one of these physical media conferences that I helped put together. And I'm telling a friend of mine, one of the other speakers that I, yeah, I just sold my 4, 000 LPs.
And he was like, you did what? This was like in 2010. And within two years, I realized what a colossal mistake I made. And I would say in the last 14 years, I've recreated that [00:43:00] collection. It's about 4, 000 LPs, and there's no more space for anything else in my apartment.
Sean Martin: They make up your table, that's your pillow. Exactly. I think there's a certain, I mentioned nostalgia, I think there's certainly a desire to have LPs, and I know kind of the packaging and the marketing, there's a lot that kind of goes over. Along with a record as well that I know some of the artists put together that kind of extend the value beyond just The record too.
So I think there's a lot around that maybe We're getting here on time, but I want to talk quickly about the kind of the quality And what you hear, um, when you play a record versus a CD versus streaming, and there are people who may not [00:44:00] know the difference or tell the difference. And then there are certainly people audio files.
You can say, no, I need an, I need a, an LP on a, on a tube based stereo system. Right. I have a buddy who has a tube, tube stereo. So it's pretty cool.
Larry Jaffee: I never considered myself an audio file, mainly because. I never wanted to spend that kind of money on hardware. Um, you know, it just seemed like a very intense hobby to have, you know, constantly upgrade and, um, whereas I was fine.
In fact, I was writing for high fidelity. I did some reviews for them. If they knew what kind of like. lousy CD player I was using, uh, Symphonic, which at the time I paid 300 for, but you know, it was, and speakers were nothing special. Um, I, so you could, you could argue forever [00:45:00] whether Which format is better, but it really depends on what exactly you're listening to because the vinyl production process can go wrong in so many different places, but the same thing, a CD has to be properly mastered as well.
Um, same thing is true with. An mp3 track, which doesn't really come close to the quality of a well done CD, actually, you know, in terms of the amount of information that, you know, is presented. To your point, though, not everybody's ears really listened that carefully. But there were bad sounding CDs in the beginning, too, because they didn't master it properly and they just used.
Um, you know, and you know, Apple actually, that was like the stopgap and just going back to tapes for just a brief moment, um, [00:46:00] from 1985 until about 1992. The cassette was like the leading pre recorded format because people eventually gravitated towards the CD because that was all that the retail stores were selling by that point.
Um, because they weren't accepting the returns. But they would take the returns back on the CD, actually. So, um, and that's how they made sure that the format stuck. Um, but get back to Record Store Day. So in 2008, Michael Kurtz, one of the co founders of, of this, you know, the Conduit Record Store Day, um, you know, spoke to a lot of labels and initially there was only about a dozen.
special releases that it was the only time you would get this limited edition thing. But what they did was they got [00:47:00] Metallica to, um, do an in store appearance on that first record store day. And there were, you know, over 500 people there. Uh, Rasputin was the name of the store. Um, and. It was a success. And then, I mean, even saying that live Seth Meyers, you know, was doing weekend update and sort of made fun of this thing called Record Store Day.
That was like the next year, actually. But the founders of Record Store Day realized that once a national television program is making fun of you, this thing is for real. And every year, it exponentially would grow. You know, in terms of the number of people, finding out about the number of people. And also, by the next year, a hundred releases.
Labels are like, wow, there's something here. So they all want to be part of it. You know, but it still took a while for the major labels to jump on the bandwagon.
Sean Martin: [00:48:00] So have the, I don't know if they're called plants, but are the pressing plants? Expanding as well. And I know maybe give us a peek into the future.
Vinyl is questionable in terms of a sustainable, um, component, right? So maybe give us a, give us a view into what's coming up.
Larry Jaffee: So, well, when I came up with the idea to do a vinyl manufacturing only. B to B conference. And actually I pitched it to a friend of mine who I had done conferences with in 2013 and he thought it was too much too soon.
But then a few years later he called me and goes, you remember that idea about the vinyl conference? We're going to do it. I was like, when? He goes this fall. Now at that point, Jack White had just opened up third man pressing in Detroit. Um, And the planets just lined up. Jack agreed to do our conference, but the time that we were doing this first event, we knew [00:49:00] that there were 35 pressing plants on both sides of the Atlantic.
Um, a few of those were sizable operations. like United Record Pressing in Nashville and, um, Rainbow Records was a decent size at that point. Um, but, and there were some major ones in Europe as well. Um, you know, in Germany, um, France, Britain. Um, so what we didn't know when we had this first event, we had 17 of those companies that We knew of the 35 that we knew of speak at the event.
What we didn't realize was there were 20 people in the audience who were planning on opening their own factories imminently. And the same thing happened the second year we went back to Detroit in 2018. And it was like exponentially in terms of the number of people jumping on this bandwagon and realizing that Vinyl's comeback was real and wasn't a fad.
Um, you know, and it [00:50:00] got more and more press. Um, I did want to get back to the, um, The technological improvement. Yeah. So some of the tools have improved that they're able to catch defects sooner and things like that. Um, they do quality control is very important. Um, but still, I mean. It's an involved process that hasn't really changed all that much since Berliner in 1888.
Um, so, and the other thing is, I mean, it defies all logic and that's why the, the subtitles of my Record Store Day book is called The Most Improbable Comeback of the 21st Century. A friend of mine said to me, He thought the title was, you know, kind of funny since like we're only like a quarter century into the century.
I said, yeah, but what's next? Like rotary phones? I mean, and then the valuation of records. [00:51:00] And this might not trickle down to the artists, unless you're an A list in terms of getting vinyl money. But, you know, a 30 retail record. Um, and the band actually manufactures their own and takes it on the road.
They're making a pretty handsome profit off of that record that costs like 10. That cost them about 10. So um, you know, but if they had to wait for the labels to, you know, pay them, it would take quite a while. And the other interesting thing about the future longevity potential is Young people are now interested in it.
So for example, the best selling album LPs last year, nine out of 10 were millennial and Gen Z favorites. And true Taylor Swift was counted for five of the 10. The only one that was not was Fleetwood Mac rumors, which has always been on the list, [00:52:00] you know, and you know, usually you would have like a Beatles, Abbey Road or a Purple Rain or Michael Jackson thrill.
Those are the four that usually, or Pink Floyd, Dark Sun and Moon. Those are the ones that always show up. Um, but you know, kids, and I know this because I'm teaching a class now writing about music. Last semester, I had 17 students. Only two of them were into vinyl. This semester I have six, I have six who are collecting vinyl, six who are collecting CDs.
Mainly because they can't afford the vinyl, they want to. Um, and I have twenty in that class. So, You know, and it seems like I asked, well, why'd you get into this? And he said, well, my dad, you know, loved it, you know, and I got his record.
Sean Martin: So, so in the last moment, um, talk to me about the, uh, the, the makeup of the material and the, the things you're working on.
Larry Jaffee: [00:53:00] Yeah. So, so I mean, so it's poly, uh, vinyl chloride. Which, um, is a plastic that Greenpeace says is the most, uh, harmful to the environment. And part of the problem is not so much of the PVC itself, because it is true that that is recyclable as a plastic. But on the other hand, it's the stabilizers like lead and cadium, you know, make sure that the records don't warp very easily and scratch and things like that.
That is the toxic problem with it, especially. Um, so, Sustainability is like a major part that the major labels have formed the three. Universal, Sony and Warner have formed something, the Climate Collective, um, Music Industry Climate Collective. Um, and they're looking for solutions. And in fact, one of my things, in addition [00:54:00] to still running the conference, so I'm making vinyl, is I'm not making vinyl.
I decided through osmosis to jump into this and, I found out about a plant based material called, um, that was developed by an English company called Evolution Music. Um, and we made our first record actually, uh, uh, last November and we did it at the Iceland Airwaves, we distributed it at the Iceland Airwaves Music Festival.
So the Iceland government is really, you know, welcomed us and we're, um, planning on building a factory there, my, my co founders and I'm
Sean Martin: super cool that you, you brought one of those records the other day, right?
Larry Jaffee: Yeah, actually I have one right here. Actually,
Sean Martin: of the two that you brought, it was not warped funny enough.
So super cool. Well, Larry, uh, you, you have a story is galore. I'm sure. [00:55:00] And, uh, I'm so glad we reconnected and, uh, I'd love, I'd love this chat, uh, making vinyl, that conference is coming up. We're going to have another chat on that. And hopefully you'll bring some other folks from the conference to, uh, talk to us a little bit more about, you mentioned quality, that's a topic I'm interested in kind of the process of how it's all created and pressed and, and.
Uh, we didn't talk about needles and players or any of that kind of stuff that, uh, could be interesting. So, uh, we'll get into some of those things and I know you're gonna. Talked to Marco, my co founder about, uh, record store day. And then the book that he wrote, uh, for that. So another conversation coming up with, with you here on ITSV magazine as well, but, uh, really good.
My friend, good to see you. Thanks for sharing your insights here. And, and, uh, hopefully everybody enjoyed this conversation. Larry more, more coming, uh, everybody else keep creating, keep listening and let [00:56:00] the music move you. This is music evolves with Sean Martin. Thanks everybody.
Larry Jaffee: Take care.