A Hollywood producer puts five musicians who have never met in a room with a six-hour clock, then hands a generative AI tool to his host and gives him thirty minutes. What comes out of that comparison says more about creative labor than it does about the technology.
The premise sounds like a stunt. Five strangers, one room, six hours, one original song. Meanwhile the show's host sits at a keyboard with a text prompt and half an hour. Grégoire Gensollen, Producer and Chief Operating Officer at Tucker Tooley Entertainment, built that episode of Band of Strangers knowing he could not predict the outcome, which is precisely why he made it.
Gensollen comes to this from the traditional side of the business. He grew up in Marseille, trained as an industrial engineer, moved into management consulting, then rerouted through business school at UCLA Anderson into Lionsgate and later FilmNation, where he ran distribution strategy and film finance across a run that included The King's Speech, The Imitation Game, Nebraska, Mud, and Looper. Ten years ago he partnered with Tucker Tooley. What he says he remembers from two decades of that work is not the tooling. It is who was in the room.
The origin of Band of Strangers is a documentary called The Unknown Tour, made by two filmmakers who outfitted a bus with a recording studio and drove across the country finding musicians on street corners, in dive bars, and in gospel churches. The pandemic put the idea on hold. When Gensollen and his team picked it up again, they made a decision that would have been unthinkable inside the studio system: skip the networks entirely and release directly on YouTube. Not for reach, but for control of the entire chain, and to protect a show about collaboration from the unscripted television reflex that turns every format into a competition with prize money and manufactured conflict.
The constraint that holds it together is the song. Every episode has to produce one, on a clock, or there is no episode. What varies is the entry point. A mariachi band at El Pueblo on Olvera Street laying a first track that hip hop artists in Leimert Park then struggle to find the rhythm inside. Buskers on the Venice boardwalk writing separately. Artists displaced by the Altadena fires building an anthem about rebuilding rather than grieving. Gensollen is candid that the stumbles stay in the cut, because the friction is the story.
On AI, he is neither evangelist nor holdout. He describes it as a tool his company will have to use to stay competitive, not against other producers but against creators working alone in their kitchens with the full chain in hand. He also draws a line: optimization, yes. Creative engine, no. His argument is structural rather than sentimental. Prediction models and comparables, the benchmarking method he learned at Lionsgate, tell you where the ceiling is on a category that already exists. A producer's job is to make the thing that does not exist yet.
That distinction is the real subject of this conversation. The question is not whether a machine can produce a competent song in thirty minutes. It clearly can. The question is who decides what is worth making, and whether an industry trained on comparables still knows how to recognize the thing it has no comparable for.
Sean Martin, Co-Founder at ITSPmagazine, Studio C60, and Host of Redefining CyberSecurity Podcast & Music Evolves Podcast | Website: https://www.seanmartin.com/
Grégoire Gensollen, Producer and Chief Operating Officer at Tucker Tooley Entertainment | On LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gregoire-gensollen/
Tucker Tooley Entertainment | https://www.tooleyentertainment.com/
Band of Strangers | https://www.bandofstrangers.com/
Band of Strangers, Can AI beat REAL musicians? [Blind Test], the episode discussed in this conversation | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gi0nadrsK8Y
Band of Strangers: Angelenos from different communities make music together from scratch, Los Angeles Downtown News | https://www.ladowntownnews.com/arts_and_entertainment/band-of-strangers-angelenos-from-different-communities-make-music-together-from-scratch/article_7f9978b0-18c2-4330-b160-b167c10e8856.html
Music Evolves: Sonic Frontiers Newsletter | https://www.linkedin.com/newsletters/7290890771828719616/
gregoire gensollen, tucker tooley entertainment, band of strangers, sean martin, ai music, creator economy, youtube original series, music collaboration, songwriting process, unscripted television, film production, generative ai, artist discovery, independent distribution, music, creativity, art, artist, musician, music evolves, music podcast, music and technology podcast
Six Hours, Five Strangers, and a Song the Machine Could Not Write | A Music Evolves Conversation with Gregoire Gensollen, Producer and Chief Operating Officer of Tucker Tooley Entertainment
[00:00:44] Sean Martin: And look at that. Here we are. We're in the city. In
[00:00:48] Gregoire Gensollen: The city. In the city. That's where it's happening.
[00:00:50] Sean Martin: It is happening. We're on literally on Broadway.
[00:00:52] Gregoire Gensollen: In Broadway,
[00:00:53] Sean Martin: Yes. And 49th. We're at Open Jar Studios. They were kind enough to let me be here with you to record this episode of Music Evolves.
[00:01:01] Gregoire Gensollen: Mm-hmm. Thank you for having me.
[00:01:04] Sean Martin: It's very good to have you, Gregoire.
[00:01:07] Gregoire Gensollen: Huh?
[00:01:09] Sean Martin: Didn't mess it up too badly. You're the producer and COO of Tucker Tooley Entertainment, And was introduced to you by Nicole. She mentioned the Band of Strangers series. Mm-hmm. And in one episode in particular, the whole series, I think is cool. One episode in particular really caught my caught my eye, obviously. Mm-hmm. And we're gonna talk a bit about that. And we're gonna look at art and entertainment and music, and we can talk distribution and operations. Technology of course, in there.
[00:01:42] Gregoire Gensollen: Perfect.
[00:01:42] Sean Martin: Before we get into that good to meet you.
[00:01:48] Gregoire Gensollen: Same here.
[00:01:49] Sean Martin: Pleasure. It's a pleasure. Pleasure to you. Maybe a few words, from you about your journey to producer and COO and I've been an executive producer for a number of films and shows. Maybe kind of a little background for folks too.
[00:02:02] Gregoire Gensollen: Yes, of course. So before being now based in Los Angeles, and as you said. Running a company for a wonderful producer called Tucker Tooley, who I've been partners with for 10 years. I grew up in Marseille, France. I started a career as a consultant. I was actually industrial engineer in management consulting for some time, sometime probably where I start to learn problem solving. Then I discovered my passion for film that's around 2003 or so and film was still like the king in entertainment at that time. TV didn't really start, but it really propelled me to go move to Los Angeles, start over my career, get a degree to get my way in. It was business school at UCLA, so UCLA Anderson.
[00:02:56] Sean Martin: Very good, wise choice of the two by the way.
[00:02:59] Gregoire Gensollen: Thank
[00:02:59] Sean Martin: You. Sorry. Sorry. Trojans
[00:03:01] Gregoire Gensollen: And I really, I mean I applied to NYU in Columbia, which are of course amazing schools. I favored at a time the network and where I would be long term, and I figured if I moved to LA that probably would be more opportunities. And so I get to that. But like I did my stint actually, so I started at Lionsgate. That was the very first studio where my real start after a lot of interning, let's say in Los Angeles in different studios. But I started, Lionsgate got part of the growth of the company. I was running international strategy for both film and television before. Being, approached to join a company here in New York called FilmNation, which is a fantastic company, founded by Glen Basner.
[00:03:50] Sean Martin: Okay.
[00:03:51] Gregoire Gensollen: And I would if the shortcut for the audience might be like, it's a bit of an Oscar factory. When I joined the company, I had just had success with The King's Speech and in the five years I was there, not in chronological order. But got a chance to work with incredible filmmakers. We did, The Imitation Game, Nebraska, Mud, Looper because there's also like elevated, like I'd say genre films. Probably two or three Pedro Almodovar movies. Some Terrence Malick movies. Incredible run here. In in for five years I was running distribution strategy. Then film finance, when we decided to raise your own money. And 10 years ago, exactly 10 years ago. So that's actually my first time with my family. I met my wife here in New York. Okay. And our first son was born here, and I moved back to Los Angeles to really be able to raise a family. And that's when I partnered with Tucker. And this is my first time back super excited.
[00:04:56] Sean Martin: Really?
[00:04:57] Gregoire Gensollen: Thank you.
[00:04:57] Sean Martin: Yes. Oh my goodness. That's, I know. That's great. Can you share why is it anything fun happening? What's going on?
[00:05:02] Gregoire Gensollen: We are in vacation and it's especially our eldest, who is 12 years old. Maxim was born here and has been growing. I mean, curious about where he was born. And,
[00:05:14] Sean Martin: Oh wow,
[00:05:15] Gregoire Gensollen: For us history, we know very well my wife, but we realize it's the age where he can really, truly enjoy New York. And he's of course, and his younger brother, Emilio, who was not born here but conceived here. And so yes, we're spending a amazing week before going to upstate.
[00:05:33] Sean Martin: Ah, very good. Yes. It's gonna be beautiful upstate, I think. Mm-hmm. I'll be upstate with you next week.
[00:05:37] Gregoire Gensollen: Alright.
[00:05:38] Sean Martin: So we'll enjoy that space together. So many things. I mean, project management that I was I built software for many years. So I look at things as a project how do you get from A to Z What's the quickest way? But in line with what you're trying to achieve, right? The objective is there, not just the end date. And a lot of stuff, a lot of people, a lot of things, a lot of time, a lot of money. How do you look at the world of production?
[00:06:06] Gregoire Gensollen: Mm-hmm.
[00:06:07] Sean Martin: And. Yeah. Ultimately I want, I want to get your kind of get your sense on how technology helps you achieve what you're trying to achieve,
[00:06:15] Gregoire Gensollen: Right?
[00:06:16] Sean Martin: While also balancing the artistic end of things, right?
[00:06:19] Gregoire Gensollen: Mm-hmm. Because
[00:06:20] Sean Martin: There are budgets and timeframes, but you don't wanna lose the essence of what you're trying to create.
[00:06:26] Gregoire Gensollen: It. It's a great question. I mean, I it's funny because if I look back, so I've been in this career about like 22 years. I, it is true, like I will definitely connect to human moments all along the way of collaboration and I love to probably think another little strong, harder, like what was the technology at that point. I know we had used it for sure, and then. It clearly evolved and is changing our landscape probably in the last couple years, more radically than ever. The hockey stick is we feel it. But interestingly enough, like if I think of my career, I'm really thinking about like, who did I meet when and what project did we work on?more than like, oh, what did it take to get there? But it's clear, like if I think I can see how. I'm sure some of the project we did would've taken a little less time, but it took back in the day. Right. Would've had like a lot more efficiencies. But I, yeah, I'm a firm believer of human connections, and everything is a privilege around this if that makes sense. Yeah. Now, I think interesting enough, like when I was at FilmNation in New York. We were really drinking, like, I don't know if it's the Kool-Aid, but like we of like working with the best filmmakers in the world, but like we were a little disconnected from technology. So 10 years ago when I moved back to LA I think I sw to myself like, don't ever get disconnected from that ever. So I worked a bit immersive, and I'm fascinated by the medium by the way, when I'm in immersive is obviously. VR xr. So 10 years ago since compared to now, it's evolved quite dramatically. But now of course, who can ignore, like the effect of ai? I'm sure we're gonna talk about it later. Later. And where my focus is on and that's also related to Band of Strangers, is the creator economy and enabling people. That's, I think, the more interesting technological impact that I'm, I feel like I wanna be part of is like enabling creators. To just showcase their talent, any any place, anywhere, anytime. That's fascinating to me. And you can see that's gonna be a whole emergence of brand new artists. So like we, they didn't really have the means before to be found.
[00:08:55] Sean Martin: Right?
[00:08:56] Gregoire Gensollen: And that's I think where we're leaning into, like in and other things that we work on. But that's to me, the most exciting new chapter in this industry.
[00:09:06] Sean Martin: Yeah. Was it 10, 12 years ago I transitioned from building products to being an analyst and journalist.
[00:09:14] Gregoire Gensollen: Mm-hmm.
[00:09:14] Sean Martin: Wild shift. And it was a moment in my life where I had a lot of things in going on.
[00:09:20] Gregoire Gensollen: Mm-hmm.
[00:09:20] Sean Martin: And I thought, here's an opportunity. So 12 years ago, think of the technology.
[00:09:24] Gregoire Gensollen: Yeah.
[00:09:25] Sean Martin: I've planned to travel with an airstream. All the a bunch of remote places around the us
[00:09:33] Gregoire Gensollen: Okay.
[00:09:33] Sean Martin: So some Ong bar in a town nobody's heard of. There might be a cool band there. And the idea was to stream them live.
[00:09:41] Gregoire Gensollen: Boy. Okay.
[00:09:42] Sean Martin: And so that was the 12 years ago. I never did it, but I think it would be really cool. You're doing something similar.
[00:09:48] Gregoire Gensollen: That's right. Yeah, exactly.
[00:09:49] Sean Martin: Of strangers. I
[00:09:50] Gregoire Gensollen: Didn't realize we would've that
[00:09:51] Sean Martin: Bringing people interesting
[00:09:52] Gregoire Gensollen: Connection here.
[00:09:53] Sean Martin: And I guess the thing that struck me was. Create the song and we mm-hmm. I wanna talk more about your some of the other things and like distribution and stuff, but create the song and it's out. Yes. Pretty much immediately. Technology allows us to do that. And not just stream live, but record, a performance. It's actually record write, record produce publish. It's there.
[00:10:18] Gregoire Gensollen: The full chain. Yes.
[00:10:19] Sean Martin: Right. The full chain. So so talk to me about that. The, the catalyst and the inspiration and the drive to
[00:10:25] Gregoire Gensollen: Actually
[00:10:26] Sean Martin: Do that.
[00:10:26] Gregoire Gensollen: Oh yeah. Okay. Gladly. So it, probably the most exciting aspect of this show is this like, if I give you a little bit of context, we first found two filmmakers. The two filmmakers, I say hi to them because they're integral to this and they're really very talented guys. They came up, they did this documentary and that what you just say resonated because they equipped a bus with a recording studio back in probably 17 or 18. I don't know, but like we found it, we discovered a full, I mean the documentary they came up with in 19, right before the pandemic, where they went all around the US and they discovered talent where they were. Street corners, dive bars, gospel church and inviting them to come and say, okay, let's record a song on a studio, on our mobile studio. And but especially what was awesome is they found strangers, people who didn't know each other and had invited them to collaborate on the song. And obviously you were basically thrown into local communities. Mm-hmm. Understanding a bit the local culture of like the city we're basically passing through and at the end of their tour, they're recording a an album and we're thinking, wow, what a great idea. Yeah. This is this feels like, already imagine before the pandemic, we already had a intuition. This is what we think the audience wants to see. Mm-hmm. Now, as soon as we start to get to and we're thinking it could be a format, right? If you know the term. Yeah. Which is we start, maybe we do this exactly same idea in the US every season is a bit of a different tour, but one day we could go all around the world and discover local cultures with different hosts, different language and all that. So we're very excited about it. And as soon as we really got the wheels in motion. The pandemic hit. We couldn't find artists anymore in the streets, so we had to just put a little bit on pause, get also our business, which was hurt at the time, but like we got it back in order, on the film business, I mean, right. And the scripted side. And in 23, I think that's when we're like, okay, we ready to do this again. And even more so at that point, we're like, people want authenticity and the light bulb happened. Going to different conferences and at I think it was Content London, I could see the trend that YouTube was going to dominate entertainment a little before. I think it actually hit the industry in the last year or so. Now it's all over the news, but like the projections were clear and I went back to Tucker, I say, Hey, what if we did this show on YouTube directly? So exactly for that point, the idea of like, we could control the entire chain when, I think we had a very clear idea of what we wanted to do creatively. We wanted to do a show about collaboration versus competition in the unscripted television space. If we had done the traditional way, they're driven by that. They, they want to know, what's the prize money, where's the competition, where is this gonna be conflict, even if it's artificial, you know? And we're like, we're not about that. We producers will do storytelling.
[00:13:33] Sean Martin: Think that formula. Set that formula aside. Yeah,
[00:13:36] Gregoire Gensollen: Exactly. Let's try to resist the temptation because we know that formula works of course, but we come from storytelling long format. We love beautiful stories and especially again, the human connections and we figure like we wanna preserve that and what do we have in our power to do this?We have the financing capacity, not forever, but at least for several months to. Produce this content and YouTube is the platform to distribute it. So that's where it started. And we figured like, so around 2024, we're clear on the plan internally and as anything, it takes a little bit of time. We are recruited like a host. So I think what was key in the show is like how do we preserve the authenticity throughout? So one aspect is a format. Meaning who exactly is gonna work. And I think, the key was we need every episode to be the creation of an original song. The stakes are real. You need to deliver a song by the end of the episode. Right. And it has to also address some kind of. Contain time element to it. It cannot just build for months, right? It won't work. It won't work also for even like what YouTube is because we have to generate, episodes quite frequently. So we need to be able to contain that. And every entry point is different to find who are strangers that will collaborate. But at least we had this very clear idea of like, it will be, one song and sing the entire creation process. For people will watch the show, they will see that there's slightly different variations. One, it's the format we are experimenting, but two, also deliberately, we wanna see the how well's gonna work. If, let's say our we're gonna talk about a AI versus human episode. There's a content, six hours for this artist to come up with a song. But some other episodes it was more about the geographic. For instance, a Venice episode we did. It was can we find the artist on the boardwalk, like basically buskers who perform and select them and say, okay, now we'll give them like a few days to come up with a song. Not together, but like separately, which was great. There's another episode we did, called, in Altadena that was we had to do it of course. Invite artists that lost their homes in a tragic fires of last year. You know, there's a lot
[00:16:05] Sean Martin: Of
[00:16:05] Gregoire Gensollen: Ways, obviously the Palisades part, but also Altadena, the eastern part of LA and we figured like, well here it's pretty clear we're gonna invite artists who found their homes or were, moved, displaced. And and have them create a song together. So it's really more a song about rebuilding rather than like, grieving at this point. It's really what's next, how, what are their lives? So we can talk about that one again, but like, so one is the format and the second aspect to preserve the spontaneity was also the hosts.
[00:16:37] Sean Martin: Right?
[00:16:37] Gregoire Gensollen: So we have two. Wonderful. And when Tyler is a dj, she's live every week. Tyler Boudreaux. Hello, I'm, it's a really cool radio station in LA for those who know, but like, she's performing every week and she has that kind of quickness and she knows how to basically, adapt to whoever she has in front of her. And also she speaks a very large, eclectic taste of music. And the second host is called Tolliver, wonderful guy. Infectious, mood and humor. And he, yeah, basically so quick and he puts everybody at ease instantly. So these were the ingredients were like, okay, with this and the concept, now it's all about like finding the artist and let make the magic happen,
[00:17:29] Sean Martin: Right?Yeah. And then I'm tempted to go to the to the episode, but I want, I want to talk about, yeah, just this idea of collaboration, and. Creativity. And did you see and hear things that maybe you didn't expect people creating something that you had no idea would be created by this them coming together?Or, or there were any moments where you thought this is a little strange.
[00:18:05] Gregoire Gensollen: Mm-hmm.
[00:18:05] Sean Martin: Because they are so different from different backgrounds. Mm-hmm. I dunno. What, what did you see in here?
[00:18:09] Gregoire Gensollen: Well, every single day.
[00:18:11] Sean Martin: Yeah.
[00:18:11] Gregoire Gensollen: Every single day. Every single, of course, different degrees of it or the surprise, but one was made by design. Let's just put it this way. Okay. We, we figured, also, like I realize we probably didn't explain also what the real ethos of the show. But we very inspired also by Anthony Bourdain and Parts Unknown, clearly. And we just discover these kind of travel locations. Right now it's. In Los Angeles. But of course the ambition is to go around the country is through the music prism. Right. And but especially, it's like exactly that like the trying to bring people who would've never met otherwise,
[00:18:56] Sean Martin: Right.
[00:18:56] Gregoire Gensollen: And put them in a room or have one, put a layer of some melody and lyrics, and then someone bouncing off that even if they're not in the same room and see what happens. So. Because we had to start again, Parts Unknown style in Los Angeles. We were like, we have to explain the origin of the city. Los Angeles is as Mexican heritage. So we figured, what if we started with a mariachi band downtown that we went and that's awesome. That is one of my favorites, mariachi. In that's called El Pueblo, Olvera Street. Wonderful. Yeah. Wow. Great.
[00:19:31] Sean Martin: Been many times
[00:19:32] Gregoire Gensollen: You've been Okay. So and it's, it's, it's, it's was a strange moment because we picked, there's still the eye things going on and obviously they were hiding, but we did find a wonderful mariachi band who laid the first track, but then we were like, okay, this is la let's show, the black community from. Crenshaw, Leimert Park.
[00:19:55] Sean Martin: Mm-hmm.
[00:19:56] Gregoire Gensollen: Hiphop. There's a place it's pretty famous there that like basically invites for free styling and open mics, and we're like, what better kind of crowd to say, Hey, would you be able to verse on this very hard for them? The rhythm was different.
[00:20:11] Sean Martin: And,
[00:20:11] Gregoire Gensollen: And that's also part of our show. We, we're like, we're leaning into all the stumbles and the issues that we face because this is what's gonna make it interesting. But like most of these artists couldn't really crack the rhythm until one, is called Slim came and just cracked it and he is awesome and he managed to we funny is like the only episode where we came up with two songs and we figured like, let's just feature both of them. But yes, so that's a perfect example. I think of one where maybe this one was by design, but we really didn't know what's gonna happen and we didn't realize like the technicality within music genres that like couldn't make. Two music genres not necessarily easily match,
[00:20:53] Sean Martin: Right?
[00:20:54] Gregoire Gensollen: But thankfully there's a human there who had never done it and figured it out. But then there's so many other examples I could cite, but like of moments where we're like, what's gonna happen? I mean, interestingly enough for me, for the I mentioned Altadena episode. It's to realize that if the fires would've never happened, some of the artists that performed on the same song, I mean basically ended up create, co-creating the song would've probably never met.
[00:21:22] Sean Martin: Right?
[00:21:22] Gregoire Gensollen: And that event made them. Now we consciously also like look for different breeds of artists who could bring different layers and as a whole, show a bit of the community and celebrate it. Of course. So it's a bit of an anthem to Altadena.
[00:21:38] Sean Martin: Yeah.
[00:21:38] Gregoire Gensollen: And that also I think was interesting. Part of me, I would like to go all the way sometimes to have all of these artists at some part time meet. We'll, we'll work on that but at least they get to meet two, the episode. And for the I think for the audience, they seem like together and they clearly have created one genuine piece of art together.
[00:21:59] Sean Martin: Right. Yeah. And I think, I can't contain myself 'cause the episode I watched that I told you before we started recording.
[00:22:08] Gregoire Gensollen: Yeah.
[00:22:08] Sean Martin: I watched up until the point of this is an AI versus human episodes. So band of five guys
[00:22:16] Gregoire Gensollen: Mm-hmm.
[00:22:16] Sean Martin: Strangers come together six hours to create a song.
[00:22:20] Gregoire Gensollen: Mm-hmm.
[00:22:20] Sean Martin: And Tolliver has the task of 30 minutes, creating one with. Ai.
[00:22:26] Gregoire Gensollen: Mm-hmm.
[00:22:26] Sean Martin: I think you used Suno, maybe some other stuff. Who knows. The thing that struck me, and then I'm, I'm bringing it in now because I think there's a lot of debate on you even called the episode, AI versus human. Mm-hmm. And I might even question, is there any, is that even a comparison? Meaning is it only human and is it only ai, which we can talk about if you want.
[00:22:53] Gregoire Gensollen: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
[00:22:53] Sean Martin: Mainly 'cause to is twisting the knobs.
[00:22:58] Gregoire Gensollen: Right, right,
[00:22:58] Sean Martin: Right. So there's human there, but,
[00:23:00] Gregoire Gensollen: Right.
[00:23:01] Sean Martin: The thing that struck me was the humans coming together. They all have their own experiences, their own struggles, which a lot of artists have that come in through their music.
[00:23:11] Gregoire Gensollen: Yeah.
[00:23:12] Sean Martin: But together, they were challenged with which beat, which melody, which song are we gonna work with and how do we be part of that? And even that is a struggle.
[00:23:25] Gregoire Gensollen: Right, right.
[00:23:26] Sean Martin: Where the only struggle this Tolliver figuring, does this is this too cheesy? Correct. Is it, is it gonna work? It's
[00:23:35] Gregoire Gensollen: Gonna have
[00:23:36] Sean Martin: Some challenge. It's, but nothing like the human challenge.
[00:23:39] Gregoire Gensollen: Mm-hmm.
[00:23:40] Sean Martin: That I think creates something special.
[00:23:43] Gregoire Gensollen: Mm-hmm.
[00:23:44] Sean Martin: So your your thoughts on that?
[00:23:45] Gregoire Gensollen: Oh yeah. Well, I start with by the way, with this is. Really an engine for me in general, like for anything in storytelling. And therefore, producing as a career is a sparking conversation. You don't want to be the one that has all the answers. You don't most likely don't especially if you pick a wrong sorry, the right question. It probably is a question that nobody can truly answer in a certain way, and this is what usually makes fantastic storytelling fantastic like. Creative projects where you will be confronted with like true, dilemma. And in this one it was pretty clear from the beginning. We're like, we don't know where we're going, but like, we are gonna have to try this because it's topical, it's timely. This is the nature of our show. Every episode has to have a different formula. The point of entry, which was actually the first time we did, have the artist. Co-create at the same time, but for the obvious reason. But like, we wanted to give a finite time. 'cause again, if to compare, we're like, what do we do? So there's a lot of thoughts of like how we could do all the versions of an episode like this but the one we went and you explained it perfectly. Six hours on one end, the humans are there. Mm-hmm. And then the only 30 minutes for our host where there's some biases. He's in the room the whole time he sees, we can hear what's happening, but. Any prompts accordingly, and you can see, and in 30 minutes you can go very fast. And that's, I think what the audience will find out. Well, the thoughts is a bit like to reason don't want when I started is that I probably won't remember exactly I, what was the tool or that was used to create, but I remember human moments
[00:25:41] Sean Martin: Mm-hmm.
[00:25:42] Gregoire Gensollen: And. To your point of like, they come with each of these five individual with their own history, background, experience, and struggles. One aspect that I love that just unfolded in front of our eyes is the producer who was really talented. Sean, who has a studio called Secret Sister. He intentionally. Gave each of the four other artists, he's the producer, so is an artist in his own right. Part of the process. But he gave each of the four who have very different skills. One is a vocalist, one is a keys player, and actually very talented at I'm
[00:26:18] Sean Martin: Surprised to see that.
[00:26:19] Gregoire Gensollen: Yeah, all of them. The drummer. That's amazing. Ramo and I'm thanking Jason. I think, or ah, Jimmy, I can't remember. Like, but like it's coming up. It's called Come back later, but like, or base. They come up, they, he basically let them have
[00:26:35] Sean Martin: Chappy. I think
[00:26:36] Gregoire Gensollen: Chappy was the one
[00:26:38] Sean Martin: That's right.
[00:26:39] Gregoire Gensollen: But they all had the chance to start and with an intention, something. And then what's amazing is to see, and that's the product, I think to me, is what makes the show and what's gonna make human interactions always more interesting anyway as a storytelling tool compared to someone prompting in front of a computer for ai. So is to see that like they all bounce very quickly. They're like, oh, it's there. And they just speak that language with him, with their own, tools, like their instruments, but also their own vibe. Like, but like they, and there's this osmosis and we, the episode actually shows pretty much the beginning of each of the five variations.'cause even the producer gave us a prompt at the end, in a way, a human prompt, right? So. That to me is really what, in general like creation, human creation is about, is like collaboration. But like who, mentioned an assist, like the creative assist, like in basketball, like you just, you prompt something and you are actually there, like to catch it, but like probably send it back and that's magical to see it. Instant. And you see the expertise. There's also, Chappy was like, again, a pretty renowned, he say, oh, I like simple things. And he's like, I know. He's like, see to this, I mean language, I don't speak, but I was like, wow, this is like, and
[00:28:07] Sean Martin: The notes on the screen, I'm like, those even notes,
[00:28:10] Gregoire Gensollen: Right?Like A Beautiful Mind, right? That Russell Crowe movie, where like, oh, what is he talking about? That it clearly it, for him it's natural language. That's amazing to watch. That's so rich and that's people. Then you can meet in a bar and talk to and humans, the limit at the end of the day, on ai. But like the tool, we can talk about that. Of course. It's, it's gonna be a tool that's gonna be adopted massively from what I understand. Suno, I think it's been, I think about a hundred million has been people playing with it. But like 2 million subscribers now. 7 million songs per per day I think are created on the tool. So it's a real thing. Like you cannot ignore it. It's not like a just a talk, the moment. How is this gonna evolve? It's gonna have a lot of challenges, the copyright issues that they have to solve and all that of course. But it will be used by some creators, again, to help them figure it out. But at the end of the day, if I go to the full experience, it's very clear is that fans will want to see real people perform. You know, that's the magic of music. More so like for that's something like sometimes in film or TV you envy a little bit. You, you see that culmination. We, we leave it through, of course, the theatrical experience when we have a chance to show the movie to an audience. And that's, but like, there's something in the music where then the artist can adapt to what's going on in the room. And. That. I mean, I just don't see it replaced ever. Right. You may have bots, concert and we'll see who's willing to pay for that but I'm sure we'll see a version of that. But still, I think, and holograms and reviving, old artists, that I think is something you probably see. I mean, the old artists, I mean, artists were deceased and now with the catalog, you're just, and why not?You know? Right. But. Still, I think what's gonna be the fuel for the actual creation is clearly human. And by, that's what we're trying to do on a show. Creating sparks.
[00:30:16] Sean Martin: Right.
[00:30:16] Gregoire Gensollen: Two ingredients that like two atoms are like, impacting each other and see what happens.
[00:30:22] Sean Martin: Exactly, yeah. And it's, it's really, it's quite something. And I think the yeah, I was interviewing an artist the other day and I was saying. You can, you can write songs, you can play songs, but once you get up in front of an audience, it's completely different. Mm-hmm. Even releasing a track to be listened on listened to online is different than performing in front of an audience because the audience responds.
[00:30:49] Gregoire Gensollen: Mm-hmm.
[00:30:49] Sean Martin: The performer responds and it changes. Right? Oh yeah. It creates something new in that moment that. It, and I'm sure a lot of people have been on vacation somewhere and
[00:31:00] Gregoire Gensollen: A hundred percent.
[00:31:01] Sean Martin: And like in Notre Dame, I remember, sitting, there was a quartet on the lawn there.
[00:31:06] Gregoire Gensollen: On the on the on the stairs.
[00:31:06] Sean Martin: Yeah.
[00:31:07] Gregoire Gensollen: Oh, beautiful.
[00:31:07] Sean Martin: And I'll never forget it because of course it was just that moment in my life and I was there and that moment and they were playing and that song and it was just, you can't you can't replace that.
[00:31:18] Gregoire Gensollen: Can't replace that. Yeah.
[00:31:19] Sean Martin: Right. Mm-hmm. And there's no way, in my opinion, AI's going to gonna do that. I want to talk to you about. The, the verses.
[00:31:27] Gregoire Gensollen: Mm-hmm.
[00:31:27] Sean Martin: Because I purposely, I told you I didn't I purposely did not watch the end of the episode where,
[00:31:31] Gregoire Gensollen: Which I love. So
[00:31:32] Sean Martin: Interesting. Presumably you walked around the streets of Hollywood or the team walked around the streets of Hollywood and said, which one do you like?The AI or the human one? And, I didn't I didn't wait for that part. I wanted to hear what you had to have to say, and I don't wanna spoil it for folks either.
[00:31:49] Gregoire Gensollen: Mm-hmm.
[00:31:49] Sean Martin: Mm-hmm. So they can watch the episode and hear it themselves. But I think that a couple things I'll say, and then I want your thoughts on it. The success is so important for so many people and entities.
[00:32:06] Gregoire Gensollen: Mm.
[00:32:07] Sean Martin: Entertainment, entertainment companies, music companies, that they use data and algorithms and formulas to find what they know will work for masses
[00:32:18] Gregoire Gensollen: Mm-hmm.
[00:32:19] Sean Martin: Of people. To generate mass amounts of money.
[00:32:22] Gregoire Gensollen: Right.
[00:32:23] Sean Martin: And I think to me, that's where the AI kind of shined, right?It mm-hmm. It knows the formula, it knows the algorithm. It can pull from a library right or wrong, that says, this is what I'm gonna create versus the human where they even started, if I remember correctly. We wanna throw in some weird beats and some things. That people wouldn't expect,
[00:32:47] Gregoire Gensollen: Right?Yes.
[00:32:48] Sean Martin: To give it something Change
[00:32:49] Gregoire Gensollen: Of tempo. Change of tempo,
[00:32:50] Sean Martin: Exactly.
[00:32:51] Gregoire Gensollen: Mm-hmm.
[00:32:51] Sean Martin: So both in the sense of AI and technology, but also in your the way you, run the entertainment company and mm-hmm. Produce things, how do you, is it all about a formula and mm-hmm. And I know you have, you want the spark, everybody wants the spark, but mm-hmm. Do you have to also. Think of the formula, like what are your
[00:33:15] Gregoire Gensollen: Thoughts? I mean, it's, I think you're hitting the nerve here. Like it's, it is really what fundamentally, changing in a more rapid way. So look, I go look back at my the beginning of my career at Lionsgate. We use what we call comparables, right?We look at like what other films before we sell one. Still similar, have similar ingredients. The director, maybe the cast, the story that's revolving around is a sports drama or, and then you can build a little bit of a. Database, a benchmark of different comparable movies, and you see all the performing theaters. That's how I started. Right. And and then you basically assess at least what's the potential of a film. And you clearly can tell there's a there's gonna be a ceiling on the specific category of films. And then the floor, you hope you will be similar to the ones you picked, but very often you already bias your analysis by removing all the ones that really didn't work, but you aspire like a good level of execution. But so that already is ingrained in the industry and it's, it hasn't really, moved away. It's still a very much like a traditional way to think about it, but like what changes Indeed. Like, the fact that like, you can. Generate entire piece of content and music, including now by a click of a button. And we know, like, I mean we've been used for like at least a decade of having on Spotify or Apple Music Library generate like a suggestion for you based on original songs made by humans. But now it's just that little step that like is going, is like, oh, what if we created something, it was perfect for you because you like this taste and this and that. So. Look, I think, it's pretty clear, producer. It's all about trying to create what doesn't exist, what will be defining culture in the future. That I hope it's clear for also for the audience in the industry, you have distributors who have sometimes who are publicly traded and so to. Investors and shareholders have inve, performance objectives and need to rely either on ip, existing IP or these kind of prediction models that like, okay, how can we be closer to our less, big success. They have these objectives as producers. We're the ones who are sometimes can churn, an adaptation of an amazing bestseller book into a movie. Sure. But still we're trying to always. Have something that's a little bit groundbreaking, or at least I'm aspiring to do that. I cannot speak to every producer, but I think it's usually what drives me is and I think work with Tucker is that like we always try to bring something that's a little different if we feel like we're, oh, we've already done this movie before. We've already done this TV show of a series that doesn't resonate. So I think. And but like what's interesting is like we know we are gonna have to use AI tools to also be competitive with everybody else. And when I say everybody else, it's not all the producers, it's creators,
[00:36:39] Sean Martin: Right,
[00:36:39] Gregoire Gensollen: Who are now in their kitchen and starting to do exactly what we're doing right now. They have one band or one women band, and have all the tools to really create from a to ZA piece of content that they can release on YouTube or any other social media platform, and whatever's coming next. And that's the part that is fascinating is like at the end of the day, it's still humans that will decide what's worth going there. I don't believe that will be a one day or studio that like would be right by robots and say, this is what we need to feed the audience like in the matrix maybe. But it's, it's clear like we have to juggle what is the right level of us using these AI tools for. I would say more like anything about optimization. Saving time when it's, it's a waste of time for everybody else on money, then why not? You know, of course. But like, when it comes to pure creativity, it can be a help for inspiration trigger that. But like we know that like it, at the end of the it will only be an average of what it is. So if you aspire to work at the top level as we are, you need to have to basically pick the artist that. Have already ingested, the entire library of music in the in the world. The best artist usually know the other artists work, by the way. Right. That I'm a firm believer. Yeah. The, I by the way, I watched your previous, podcast with I think the producer, Sam.
[00:38:11] Sean Martin: Oh, Sam Young.
[00:38:11] Gregoire Gensollen: Yeah. Yeah. And you could tell he was like, I think he mentions like when he has all his demos to listen through the week as a music producer and he can instantly be like, yep, nope. Yep. No. We all have some facets of that depending on our expertise. I grew up, with my parents are, psychiatrists, but contemporary art collectors. So since I'm a child, we go in galleries or art shows and have that, I can instantly be like, good art, bad art, or, it's hard to say for not bad, but it. Oh, yes. It's striking visually, but very quickly. I'm like, I know it's been done like 30 years ago and it's, you're not creating something new. But then you will see the one thing like, it's like, well, okay, what is this? And it creates a reaction in you. It's like you can't really process because you don't know. You're like, I, what is it telling? Or what is this? And then that's when the engine, the wheels are turning are like, this is art. It's making me think I have a reaction.
[00:39:07] Sean Martin: Right.
[00:39:07] Gregoire Gensollen: I didn't process this. Is is bringing something new to the world They like now people have to deal with. That's, that's to me the key. And I think we, I know that like, that's usually when I, when I meet, filmmakers or they bring like a script that like, is kind of somewhat disturbing and it's, and you keep thinking about it. You're like, I'm, I'm probably gonna have to do this because this is really what's gonna fascinate people in the same way.
[00:39:30] Sean Martin: Yeah.
[00:39:30] Gregoire Gensollen: Mm-hmm.
[00:39:31] Sean Martin: That's fantastic. Like, I have so many questions. Please. I don't I don we have, we don't have a lot of time. I want to Maybe we'll have another chat.
[00:39:44] Gregoire Gensollen: Well, happy to. Yeah,
[00:39:45] Sean Martin: We can do another one at some point and I'll come to la I'll be in LA at some point. Again, I want to close with this because I don't want to take from away from what you just said. I think its beautiful. I want to get a view for from you of kind of what's next and maybe
[00:40:03] Gregoire Gensollen: Mm-hmm.
[00:40:04] Sean Martin: Maybe kind of pull together for you personally. Okay. Where you want. Where you think you'll be heading and what you want to see, but also with Tucker Tooley Entertainment in terms of progression and innovation.
[00:40:21] Gregoire Gensollen: Mm-hmm.
[00:40:22] Sean Martin: And 'cause I look, I see a lot of different, I do a lot of B2B stuff in addition to the music.
[00:40:28] Gregoire Gensollen: Yeah.
[00:40:29] Sean Martin: And I see innovation all over the place.
[00:40:32] Gregoire Gensollen: Right.
[00:40:33] Sean Martin: Changing the way companies run and work. And bring people together and accomplish things faster and in unique ways that weren't possible before.
[00:40:44] Gregoire Gensollen: Mm-hmm.
[00:40:44] Sean Martin: So where do you see yourself going as an artist and a producer? Mm-hmm. And how does, your organization kind of help fulfill that?
[00:40:55] Gregoire Gensollen: Yeah. Wow. It's, it's, it's a it's a big, a good open-ended question. I love it. It's, I also try to. Sometimes to default, like think so much about the future. But the one aspect already, just as a segue into the bigger ones and more personal, but like, for instance, like on when you launch something like a Band of Strangers compared to a movie, that's what's exciting, the creator economy is to see the product evolve. That's a very new thing for us. That's something like, it takes a whole different mindset because. Everything we've done till this project, pretty much everything is a script on the paper. But like, then we turn into a film, feature film or series and that's it. And then we, when it's done, we release it to the audience, usually with a distributor. And it pretty much then has its life on its own, but like it will not change. The product will not change. Here, we're now like dealing with a medium where. We try to incorporate the feedback of the audience. That's such a different muscle. A lot of people, who are not from Hollywood have been trained that muscle for now. You know, YouTube is over 20 years old. So if you ask me what's next is I guess for for a company with Tucker, me and personally is that how do we ride that wave?How do we. Now create basically a now new formats, but bring the Hollywood, let's say, excellence in storytelling and execution. The, the taste we built for 20 plus years, because that's also I can see with pretty objective eyes. What is presented as a in general YouTube right now. For most people and I talk to artists, they feel like it's very low and mass consumption. There will be a few projects here and there that pop, but not that many. And that's what we think we're gonna bring to the table.
[00:43:02] Sean Martin: Okay.
[00:43:02] Gregoire Gensollen: Right. The elevated version of it. We have to now figure like, how does that work economically? It's very different animal than, let's say, doing unionized movies. Here we're working with a tight team for Band of Strangers clearly. But. If you ask me yes, for the probably we'll see, but I can see for at least a decade and probably more until there's some of a big radical shift. But it's how do we as producers who have strong instincts and I believe like know to talk with artists and or find artists, to help them find their own audience. Because I think ultimately, if we, of course we work with mainstream players and I. Studios and will always do for the let's say the long format and bigger versions of that. But first, you can't just like pitch to a studio and say, Hey, we have found this first time filmmaker who's done this optic thing. So you need to help him grow. And we are willing to basically, put resources, and not just financial, but like also our skills and network and storytelling sense, all that. To help them get to a place where they can test their audience. And then now that we've taken our risk, championing that we can take it to now like the traditional studio and do what we do on the film, that's where I think it, the inflection point will be. But like, it takes time and expertise of like building, knowing how to build your audience just means exactly not to crack today. Yeah. So if you ask me, yes, I'd love to do other channels that experiment, that different genres, adult animation, it can be, historical stories. Maybe using of AI in that case would be actually ethical in a way because you would not, pretend that it's what it's not. It's just, well, we have to recreate this tree. Why not? So there's a lot of things like that. We could explore, but like, it's, it's clearly to me it's like the nut to crack is like, how do we now get into this new mindset? The, a very complex, profession is also like, how do we find our audience directly and we help this artist and creators, find it.
[00:45:22] Sean Martin: It's that last piece that really strikes me. 'cause I think we've, we've ended up in a place where we can all do it on our own.
[00:45:32] Gregoire Gensollen: Mm-hmm.
[00:45:32] Sean Martin: We can sit in our room. And do it
[00:45:35] Gregoire Gensollen: Right.
[00:45:36] Sean Martin: And I think, we miss a lot
[00:45:39] Gregoire Gensollen: Mm-hmm.
[00:45:40] Sean Martin: In our own experience in doing so. Mm-hmm. And and I think to your other point, we probably miss an audience if we don't know how best to reach and connect with them. Not just deliver something that they might find and connect with. And I think what you're doing is critical there, I think. Yeah. To. To give a platform and a and a and support and yeah, like a crowd, a crowd of artists coming together to do good things for society. Nice.
[00:46:16] Gregoire Gensollen: Right. We're kind of a human soundboard.
[00:46:19] Sean Martin: Yeah.
[00:46:19] Gregoire Gensollen: To the artist and help them,
[00:46:21] Sean Martin: Greg. Well,
[00:46:22] Gregoire Gensollen: Thank you, huh?
[00:46:23] Sean Martin: Absolutely.
[00:46:23] Gregoire Gensollen: Pleasure, pleasure. Love
[00:46:24] Sean Martin: The conversation. Enjoy your time in New York, a home away from home, hopefully.
[00:46:30] Gregoire Gensollen: Yeah.
[00:46:31] Sean Martin: Enjoy your time upstate as well. You too. And hopefully I'll see you in Los Angeles at some point, and I wanna keep in touch with you, please. See, I love that. See what you're, what you're up to. Yeah. And thank you for doing
[00:46:42] Gregoire Gensollen: What
[00:46:42] Sean Martin: You're doing also. Oh, thank you.
[00:46:43] Gregoire Gensollen: It's
[00:46:43] Sean Martin: Awesome. Appreciate it. Thanks everybody for joining us for this. Music evolves obviously music and more in this episode. Please stay tuned. Connect with Gregoire and I'll put a link to the episode. Purposefully didn't spoil it, so it's worth watching. Thanks everybody.